"4-Sided Dive: Oh My Gods" (4SDx26) is the twenty-sixth episode of 4-Sided Dive, discussing episodes of the third campaign up through "Downfall: Part Three" (3x101) (the Downfall trilogy) with guests Taliesin Jaffe, Laura Bailey, Ashley Johnson, and Brennan Lee Mulligan.
Synopsis[]
Ashley Johnson is the 26th Tavern Keeper for tonight! We take a moment to remember the beloved C-block of the show AKA the game part. There will be no game tonight as discussing current events will take some time.
What the Fuck is up with That?[]
- Character creation: what was it like? Brennan steps in to say that the first and hardest thing to decide was either doing a split party of Betrayer Gods and Prime Deities or doing solely Primes. They ended up doing the latter.
- Brennan set a bar during character creation. He knew it would be cool to have some players playing Betrayers, and some of them wanted to. But Brennan's fear was that the players playing Betrayers would realize that they didn't have conflicting feelings about destroying Aeor and antagonizing the people who were playing Primes. So Brennan asked them if they had a vision for playing a Betrayer God that would give them a relationship to what's happening that was as textured and complex as the one they had for a Prime Deity. His fear was that it would be sexy for a minute and then they'd get bored.
- Taliesin says it would have been like playing an NPC basically, telling the others they're playing an hypocrite, but that's not interesting.
- They also had two mission briefs. Not only did they have to depict the fall of Aeor, but also depict it as it is being witnessed by Bells Hells. For where Campaign Three is at, the revelations about the Prime Deities could feel more crucial than the Betrayer Gods that really want the world to burn.
- When Ashley decided to play the Everlight, she struggled with the idea of playing "good" but with complexity. During a meeting with Brennan, he made an analogy that helped Ashley by saying that the person who wants to take care of everyone around, being the first to lay down, has to face a lot of complications in that choice. Good is endlessly complicated.
- Ashley felt like Downfall was about what feels right or wrong to each person, but she didn't feel right about much of anything that they were doing. Having to wrestle with that was intense.
- There's so much backstory with the gods, that they hoped but also feared that they weren't going to do their backstory justice. Laura had a heavy task with the Matron of Ravens because there are so many secrets around her history. She and Matthew Mercer had conversations about it. There's so much that hasn't been revealed to them as players and Matt likes to surprise them still, so Matt gave her a little bit of information, just enough for Laura to play her for a bit.
- Brennan points out the impressive performance of the players portraying the gods and their relationship between them and mortals.
- Both Brennan and Taliesin point out how the Wildmother was running her avatar Asha closer than how the Betrayer Gods were running their avatars by calling the shots. Taliesin figured out why the Wildmother is not a Betrayer God: because she is basically stuck on Exandria; she can't leave. If she did, she would not survive leaving the planet.
- Everyone was taken by surprise when Noshir Dalal's character the Emissary revealed himself to be a herald of the Lawbearer and not the the deity herself. When Noshir talked with Brennan about the Lawbearer, he said that there's no love for mortals but they do owe them. Mortals and gods created a world together and they are still doing it. For Brennan that is a perspective that will put you on one side of the Schism and absolutely let you uncomplicatedly destroy Aeor.
- Downfall is a tragedy and a divine horror. Per Brennan, this is the darkest moment of the Prime Deities. They called a truce after 100 years of war not to figure things out, but a timeout to protect themselves. Brennan had the idea of the story not ending in triumph and celebration but in horror, anguish, and a kind of divine nausea that becomes evident to both Bells Hells and Ludinus Da'leth.
- Despite knowing what happened to Aeor and upon arriving at "Downfall: Part Three" (3x101), Ashley wanted to go back in time and change what they'd done.
- They want to save the Ars Elysia. No one expected that sequence to happen and all loved it.
- Laura perceived the Matron of Ravens as believing that death is not necessarily a bad thing. She remembers back in Campaign One: Vox Machina when they went to the Fields of Elysium to see the Everlight and the Dawnfather in person. On the Island of Renewal, there were pearls of souls on the shore like endless grains of sand.
- Brennan speaks about the difference between Nick Marini's portrayal of Ayden/the Dawnfather in the Calamity and now in modern Exandria, where the Dawnfather is much harsher and sterner because some of his naivete or optimism died in Downfall. On the other hand, a part of the gods changed when they became mortals for this mission, too.
- What happens to the souls of the worshipers of the gods when their god dies? Taliesin says there was certainly a process before the gods arrived. The gods arrived and established a new order on an already created world. A lot of our mythologies line up with that.
- It was interesting for Brennan seeing the Matron of Ravens paying the most respect to the mortals of Aeor being ready to go to war with them because they are ready.
- Taliesin had a distinct feeling about how the Wildmother thought of the Matron when they were setting up the characters. It shifted hard over the game. The Wildmother acknowledged the Matron being part of her family but wasn't quite over how she did it.
- Downfall was the moment were the Matron was fully accepted by the other deities, as shown by Nick as Ayden saying she's family now. It didn't occur to Taliesin to establish how the temple of the Dust family, Stone family, and Clay family were entirely because a conversation between the Matron and the Wildmother; that they were created because of that relationship.
- Brennan thanks Ashley for depicting the ultimate horror, with the nausea of the Everlight wanting to have made a different choice, showing that we make our moral choices in a chaotic, moving world. Aeor's doom was written when Milo Cowst said that she didn't have a week, she had tonight to do this. You don't make your ideal moral choices in stopped time, you make them as whatever scrambling, panicked, fearful thing as you wonder if you will die there by the Factorum Malleus turning on and killing you first.
- Ashley really liked Taliesin's take on the Wildmother, which was different than the cast expected. Taliesin explains that on the surface it was taking the Wildmother of Caduceus Clay and going, "Perhaps I didn't make myself clear". Taliesin took his own experience of a city kid who didn't like nature and wasn't built for this. Taliesin heard a phrase from Stephen Fry saying that nature is basically every life form on Earth living a life of pain and starvation until it dies violently. Nature's relationship now with people is very different because there's food and beauty, but before civilization it was starvation and violence.
- Noshir Dalal's pitch to Brennan was saying that the Lawbearer has already, internally, by this point in the Calamity, thought of and supports the idea of the Divine Gate, even though they were still hundreds of years before the end of the Calamity. The plan of becoming mortals, having the planet at war and choked, and a city that could kill them felt like a shit show for the Lawbearer. Her sending the Emissary was her wanting to keep on a hard part of this line nonetheless.
- Everyone congratulates the guests Noshir Dalal, Nick Marini, and Abubakar Salim for their performance. Abu playing an Aeormaton was so perfect. Brennan points out that we haven't seen the Arch Heart in the main campaigns, but this deity is responsible for the cosmology of Exandria. There was peace with the Primordials; there weren't Betrayers or Primes; but then the Arch Heart gave magic to the mortals and then there was a war.
- Laura explains that before they started playing, they went around the table and spoke about their feeling about the other players, and Abubakar said that the Arch Heart was one of the only gods that actually liked the Matron. Essentially the Arch Heart was proud of her for her ascension and the great things she had done, but Laura's take on that is that the Matron doesn't want to be placated like a kid. She deserves more respect.
- Marisha Ray first pitched the Matron of Ravens to Laura because she was terrified of her and all the things that happened because of her in Campaign One. Now Laura really loves her so much.
- Brennan says that Laura played the Matron with the coldness of knowing her, as shown in the scenes with her talking with the planetar Garathran just after he died or being straightforward with Cassida Previn seeking to know the location of the elevator were good examples.
- Brennan praises Ashley and Nick's relationship and performance as the Everlight and the Dawnfather. The sweet little good-aligned light gods, the ones that thought it might end any other way. Brennan adds that both of them set themselves up for the most pain.
- Ashley was talking to Brennan about having Trist leave Aeor and go back to her mortal family because Ashley didn't want to make the decision of destroying the city and the mortals in it. Ashley thought that was selfish because the gods are also her family for much longer, so no decision felt right. But the Everlight was probably the god who likes mortals the most, so it made sense for her to start a family even though is was because of pure selfishness.
- To Ashley, the Everlight lost her followers and asked herself what was the point of being a god now? She found the most joy in mortal life.
- Even though the Everlight didn't go in person to save her children, she did send a weapon to Haylie and Topher who unleashed their demigod status to help Purvan Suul. There's now a bloodline of the Everlight running around on Exandria.
- Adamar Cadrow and the rulers of Aeor were aware of the Society of Primes. They were fully compromised and were going to be killed once the project was over.
- The Everlight is the god who actually ended up destroying the last remnants of the Factorum Malleus. Laura wonders if when the Matron bamfed out Hallis, she inadvertently preserved a seed of that knowledge. Brennan: Depends on who that kid is.
- Brennan points out that as far as the gods are concerned, mortals are not allowed to have even the potential to harm them.
- The prologue! Brennan pitched the idea to Matt because he thought it was important to show how and why the Prime gods were willing to make an alliance with the Betrayers. Laura thinks that's why it's a shame Bells Hells didn't get to see that. The Lord of the Hells could have become many different things, as could all of the proto-gods, and their actions determined what they became when they emerged from possibility into reality and killed off the possibilities they didn't choose. Some of the Betrayers were very heroic during this crisis. Brennan points out that Asmodeus' first experience of the real was pain, while the Everlight's was trying to help someone.[1] Each of the gods basically became what they chose to do during those first chaotic moments in the real.
Tower of Inquiry[]
- The Jenga™ Tower has been replaced for this episode with a KerPlunk tower.
- Can you talk more about your safety practices? What do you do to protect each other's mental health and emotions when the themes you're exploring in game are potentially triggering, or potentially a "nope" topic for someone? How do you do this without spoilers for the players? Safety tools are awesome. The best way to handle this is to make sure everyone's on the same page before the game even starts, clarifying what you're going for. Many of the players like going to places they wouldn't be comfortable with in real life, but there has to be trust with the others at the table first. Stories definitely help people deal with when bad things happen to them in real life.
- Is there a non-magical item from your character's past that they still keep with them? For Trist, it was Amaris' coat. Asha didn't really care about the material. The Matron had a stash of stuff from her mortal life she never really used. By the way, Emhira was her own warlock patron.
- Which NPC from a previous campaign would you want your current character to meet? The Matron will meet all of them, eventually. For the Wildmother, Keyleth. Taliesin confirms "Asha" is definitely related to "Ashari" (not "Ashton"). Ashley picks Yasha for Trist, because she needed help. Brennan confirms Bolo was the silver dragon in Downfall, but the character he'd most like to play is Vespin Chloras meeting the Matron, the woman who inspired his greatest failure. For the Matron, she'd most like to meet Ludinus Da'leth.
The Deep Dive[]
- Taliesin: What do you think of the theory that Ludinus is Hallis? Laura just did it spur of the moment, to show the Matron's merciful side. Taliesin hope it isn't true because he believes killing the city wasn't a good answer and that the gods will learn that.
- Ashley: How was it for the Everlight to work with the Lord of the Hells after he betrayed her? Rough. But there's still bottomless love there, and she believes he could be redeemed. Brennan reveals that they almost found out that "Arcadia" was actually Asmodeus. The Betrayer had sealed the real Arcadia away earlier that same day and gave the gem holding her to Acastriel.
- All: What was the main philosophy you wanted to imbue your god with? How do you think Nick, Abu and Noshir would answer? They've already mostly covered this for themselves. Nick wanted optimism and dashed hope combined with pragmatism; Abu had a hedonistic life-affirming philosophy; Noshir valued contracts, agreements, reliability, and consequences.
- Laura: How does the Matron feel about taking part in this new family? Does she feel closer to any of her new siblings now? The Matron always like the Everlight, who was one of the few who, while not welcoming her, didn't shun her. Laura thinks the Matron and the Dawnfather ended up by now respecting one another. The Matron is one of the few that fully understands both the mortal and deific perspectives.
- Taliesin: How did Asha end up feeling about the Emissary? Can you tell us about the journey of her feelings towards him and the Lawbearer during the journey? Deeply insulted, hurt, and betrayed, and she took it out on the Emissary. Noshir took on a huge challenge with a character that barely spoke, and all the Emissary wanted was to meet his mother, which he never really got to do. Dani reveals Noshir had the Emissary made by the Lawbearer from ice and stone because it felt like having a child with the Wildmother.
- Ashley: How was it working so closely with Nick Marini as Trist and Ayden? It was a joy. They had a lot of Zoom conversations and created a lot of backstory that was never revealed. Also, he knows more about D&D than anyone Ashley's ever met. Brennan agrees, and shares that Nick's been making his life a living hell for 14 years (they've been playing together since they were kids). All of them can't wait to play with him again.
- Brennan: What was your preparation process like for Downfall? How did it differ from Calamity? The Ring of Brass were actually villains, corrupt city officials who made the heroic decision to give Exandria a chance to survive, whereas in Downfall we see everything from the gods' perspective, where they are the "good" guys that end up killing a city. So Calamity ended in triumph, but Downfall ended in horror. The final battles differed, in that in Calamity he knew the party would lose, but in Downfall, he knew they would win-- but the encounter was designed so the victory felt hollow and exposed the intoxication of power.
- Laura: How was it playing the Matron, especially after everything you went through as Vex'ahlia? It was eye opening and Laura doesn't hate her anymore.
- Laura: What was Emhira's relationship with Purvan? He was her protector. But how did they find each other? The Matron let her Champion Purvan know ahead of time what was planned, and told him to seek out and protect the baby Emhira. He became like a father to her, with a very mortal relationship that can now never be again since she has returned to her godly form. Very Obi-Wan Kenobi.
- Taliesin: How would the Wildmother have described the Emissary to the Lawbearer? That's a really hard question. Taliesin's walked away hard from the Wildmother character because it was a lot, and he was not functioning well. But he would describe him as more just and kind than they deserved. They all felt very protective of the Emissary.
- Ashley: What was the easiest part about playing Trist and the Everlight? What was the hardest? It was easy to show love and care for everyone at the table because that's what Ashley actually feels for them. The hardest part was making decisions, because all the choices were terrible.
- Brennan: Did Cassida truly renounce the Everlight in her final moments, or was that another lie? Not in her final moments. She had done it before then.
- Brennan: What were some of the major questions you either wanted to answer or have the audience/players ask themselves during this game? Brennan didn't want to tell a story to prove his own beliefs, because that would just be propaganda. He wanted to tell a complex story without clear heroes or villains, where the gods are family and love each other, but that has a different meaning to celestials than to mortals. Is the love of the gods for each other the most important fact of Exandria and do mortals therefore have to care about it? Brennan asks: "Did they do it because they were scared to die? Did they do it because they were saving Exandria? Or did they do it because everything was happening all at once and they had one night?" Taliesin: Yes. He thinks the gods could choose to just walk away from Exandria, and if they valued mortal life they would do so, but Laura isn't so sure.
- Laura: How much did Matt tell you about the Matron of Ravens? Are you now a keeper of the forbidden lore? She knows a lot but not everything about her ascension and mortal life.
What the Fuck is Up With That, Part Deux[]
- Leftover questions! They all loved the Betrayer Gods, because being good is more complicated than being evil and it was nice to see their fellow gods unburdened by moral complexities. Brennan points out that Asmodeus, as lord of trickery, understands others and how to use their fears and hopes against them. When the Crawling King told Trist she had hooks in her as well and he knew their names, he was referring to her family. Brennan didn't mean The Ruiner to be funny, but realized that comedy is inherently destructive.
- Did anything about the ending surprise you or your characters? Laura loved when the Arch Heart brought the cone of destruction through the city. Brennan loved watching the regular cast members' faces when Cognouza vanished, knowing what was going to happen to it.
Tower of Inquiry[]
- If you could have any power/ability that your character has, which one would it be? For Ashley, to heal people. Taliesin would love to parkour; Laura would like to be able to turn invisible; Brennan would love to have a bunch of arms like the robot bartender.
- What is the costume production process for a live show? Jenny Newman is their costuming goddess, and Dre is their makeup artist. The group comes up with a general theme for costumes and Jenny finds them (for the UK show, it was rock stars). In the LA live show, Brennan cosplayed as a camera.
- Your character won a blue ribbon at the local fair. What for? Taliesin: Produce. Ashley would win best-in-show for Trist's dog Gilly.
- Dungeons and Dragons is a game full of tough decisions that have crafted a beautiful story across three campaigns. If you could have a "what if" one-shot or mini-series and change a decision your character made in the past, what would it be? Ashley would take back the time Pike Trickfoot took a shit on a bed. It was fun in the moment but it took her down a dark path. Taliesin is curious what would have happened if Mollymauk Tealeaf had survived. Well, Jester Lavorre would have had to keep healing, so maybe it's good he died. Laura wonders what would happen if Imogen Temult gave into the pull of Predathos. Taliesin mentions he's curious about what would have happened if Vex'ahlia had chosen Saundor when Vox Machina was retrieving Fenthras, and Laura admits she lost sleep over that, thinking she made the wrong choice. Brennan thinks Asmodeus is still kicking himself for not staying to ensure that Avalir actually hit the ground to release the primordial titans.
- Ashley loses the Kerplunk game and the consequence is to create a full backstory for Bolo. They establish that, as a dragon, Bolo escaped Avalir by flying away. She really was an Aeorian spy in Avalir through her honey pot scheme with Loquatius Seelie, they really did bang, and she got the drinks.
Quotations[]
Brennan Lee Mulligan: (as Bolo) "My mother was a dragon. My father was a reporter."
Trivia[]
- As explained by Ashley Johnson in the episode introduction, there's no "More-Sided Dive" for this episode since there was much to discuss about the events of Downfall.
References[]
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